What does it really take to thrive as a female artist today? In this episode of Art Crush, hosts Fi Marks and Paula Telizyn dive deep into the beautiful, messy reality of being a woman in the visual arts.
Balancing the demands of motherhood, managing a household, and sustaining a serious creative practice is no small feat. We’re unpacking the heavy mental load that comes with making art while managing a life, and having an honest conversation about the hurdles female artists face both inside and outside the studio.
We tackle the tough stuff: facing down both internalized and external misogyny in the art world, breaking free from the people-pleasing trap, and discovering how to truly own your worth. Where is the line between being confidently self-assured and arrogant? How do we stop being “too humble” and start unapologetically claiming our space?
In this episode, we cover:
- The reality of balancing kids, home life, and a visual arts career.
- How to identify and overcome internalized misogyny in your creative practice.
- Navigating external biases in the art world.
- The “Humble Artist” trap: Why people-pleasing is hurting your art business.
- How to build genuine creative confidence without feeling arrogant.
Whether you’re an artist navigating motherhood, an emerging creator finding your voice, or someone trying to break out of the people-pleasing cycle, this episode will help you find your balance and build unshakable confidence.
Listen now to join the conversation! If you loved this episode, please rate, review, and share it with another female creative who needs to hear this.
00:00:00 Speaker 1: Welcome to Art Crush with artist Fi Marks and Paula Telizyn, where we talk about being an artist, feminism, decolonizing art, and more in twenty twenty six.
00:00:23 Speaker 1: Welcome, fee.
00:00:25 Speaker 2: Hi, Paula. Lovely to be here.
00:00:27 Speaker 1: It’s great to be here, too. a few weeks ago, we were talking about how to get taken seriously as a professional artist. We did a whole podcast episode on that, and we know we had left an important part of that unsaid. And I think we even said that towards the end of the podcast, we want to come back and, and poke at this topic a bit more from the perspective of being a woman in arts. facing the barriers that women face, not just in everyday life, in a, in an active patriarchy, but as an artist as well. So I think it’s a really good time for us to sort of circle back and, and talk about that because we both have Experiences, in person, online, with opportunities and more. throughout our professional careers. So did you want to start?
00:01:14 Speaker 2: Well, I just think it is so pertinent at the moment. In fact, I read an article yesterday, about a new exhibition in London that was about women who have not been acknowledged for their art. Now we know about some of them, but they are literally finding them every day. I think we talked before about that film called Big Eyes, where they, it ended up with a court case to try and prove that the woman, not the man, was the artist. And, um, you know, it was almost biblical in the way that the, it became very apparent. They were both given like an easel and said, right, show us then. And um the bloke said, oh, I’ve got it bad. Let me know. I’ve sprained my wrist. I’ve done this, that and the other. And the woman just got on with it and it was very apparent it was her style. Now obviously we can’t do that. But it almost seems crazy in this day and age that this is going on. but to me, it tells me that we have still got such a long way to go. as we’ve mentioned in podcasts previously, um, and is very pertinent to women is women’s lack of confidence and self-esteem, which makes them undervalue their role as an artist. You know, they don’t take themselves seriously because they have so many other things going on that they feel have to take priority. So we’ve got the sort of like two pronged attack here. We’ve got the women in history who have been ignored, not just ignored, but their work has been credited to men. And then we have women today who don’t really have the role models or the idea of how to be hugely successful in the art industry today.
00:03:17 Speaker 1: Yeah. So we’ve got the external pressures on women from being in a patriarchy and the perceptions of our value as people, as creatives, as all and all that. And we have the internalized issues. So externally, we have less opportunities. If we look at, the genders of artists at shows. You’re going to get a domination of men unless the shows are exclusively for women, We know that when artists put their work forward for consideration, that immediately the women have to defend themselves more because they’re not taken as seriously. They’re just making cutesy art or whatever. And internally, one of the biggest fights I still have with myself is I can paint even if the dishes aren’t done. And this is a big one because I work from home, I work I my studio is in the home, your studio is in the home. And, and we take on this idea that we have to almost earn our free time or our creative time in a way. I’m not speaking for you though, because you may have different experiences, but for me, I’ve always felt like I had to make sure the kids were dealt with. I had to make sure the house was dealt with and then if there was any energy and time left over, then I could go and paint and create and and deal with that stuff. And I know I’m not alone in that because I wasn’t even aware I was doing it until I came across somebody’s blog probably about fifteen years ago, talking about how women have to do stuff before they can do the stuff they actually are supposed to be working on. They have to do the housework and the labor. And we know that this stuff is never done. The dishes are never completely done. They’re constantly being, dirtied. The laundry is never fully done because somebody’s wearing clothing that will need to be washed. Like it’s, it’s an endless cycle. So we have this endless battle against ourselves. But there’s also the sense too, that I can’t take myself seriously as an artist because I’m just making cute art or whatever. as an art business mentor, I come across women who even put themselves down. Oh, I’m not that serious. I’m not going to charge what my art’s actually worth. Even if their skills are top notch. They they just put themselves down.
00:05:31 Speaker 2: And I’m also sure if you spoke to virtually all female artists, I mean, I have it. if I’m running a workshop or doing some mentoring that is deemed as work. If I’m painting, I’m not working. And I have to really say, yes, I am working. I make a conscious effort. I am an artist. I’m a professional artist. So painting is working and it’s a difficult one because of the all the connotations tied up with the word work, because people see work as something you have to go through. It’s not a joyous place. You never, you know, the word work doesn’t fill people with like, oh, it’s just I just love going to work. It’s the best place. In fact, I would go for free because I love it so much. So when you’re doing a job that other people see as enjoyable, somehow it becomes not work.
00:06:38 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that these that awful. I hate the statement, the cliche, if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life is so short, to be frank about it, because it then makes people feel like they fail if they’re doing stuff they don’t enjoy in their business, which everybody, every business has to do things they don’t enjoy. But it also makes it people feel like they’re not actually doing proper work because they are enjoying it. We, we’re so used to work being an effort, as you said, that, that anything else you’re.
00:07:16 Speaker 2: Choosing, it’s tied up with the word labor, isn’t it?
00:07:18 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And you’re cheating if you’re enjoying it. So so I want that statement to just go away, right? Yeah. You can enjoy your work and still be expected to be gainfully paid for it. And you can not enjoy your work. And when you’re running an art business, because generally you don’t get hired as a full time portrait painter or whatever, because that’s a not a thing. you have to do the things that you don’t like as part of the business and it’s okay not to like it, but you don’t have to feel like, well, that’s, that’s just a sacrifice or I don’t want to do it. our mindset is really important when it comes to how we approach our work. So when it comes to making your paintings, I know that you try to paint several times a week, if not more. Do you create non-negotiable painting times like nobody can come to you and say, actually, let’s go shopping or let’s go and do something else? Do you block out that time to keep it there for yourself?
00:08:17 Speaker 2: Yeah. When I’m looking at, you know, my week ahead, I usually do it a week in advance. I’m looking at my the commitments that I’ve got, the timed commitments that I have to be somewhere. Um, and I’m getting paid for going there. So they, they are in my diary. And then I look at when I’m going to be painting and I have to say, you know, I do not ever say, oh, I can’t paint because I need to do the cleaning. I don’t, I will live in a dirty house. That’s fine. I have made it a priority because I know if a week goes by and I haven’t painted, I begin to start twitching. And because a lot of work as an artist is in your head, when you are planning and preparing what you’re doing that is going on constantly when you’re driving, when you’re going to bed, all those things you’re planning, planning, planning, planning, what you’re going to do, what you’re going to do on social media, what you’re going to do for your next show, that it is really important that I go because I know when I paint, I’m not thinking about anything else. Might have an audiobook on, might have some music on, but I am the focus is art because that is what is my priority. So yes. So although, you know, when you said that I was like, do I, do I do, I block time out. But yes, I do. I also do things like, like shopping, we do our groceries online and have that delivered because that would be another day’s venture really if you, you know, went so stuff like that. I think we’re lucky or fortunate at this day and age that we can do that. I have dogs that need walking, but that is good because I need to get out and I like going out and having that time with the dogs. So that gets featured in. So what time am I going to be doing that? And literally, I am a bit of a saddo because, you know, like my ideal day as an artist would be doing my social media, doing the business stuff first, then do painting, take the dogs out about half one, two o’clock come back. It’s usually about four o’clock by then. I then have something to eat. I might do another hour or so work painting or whatever, and then I stop. I don’t want loads of commitments in my life and I mean, Paula and I are fortunate to a certain extent. Although Paula has still got one toe in the door of childhood education. But, you know, when I was a single parent with a child in school, it was almost impossible, that’s where a lot, you know, we’ve talked as well about losing yourself. I was just functioning, functioning, working as a teacher, looking after my child, making sure they were in school, making sure the washing was done, making sure they were fed. There was no space. I mean, so it’s difficult for me to say because I wasn’t a professional artist at that time. So it’s hard to know. So I would be really interested to hear from any of the female artists out there who do have young children, how they cater for their time, because, you know, it is difficult. And, you know, I’m still finding it difficult and I’ve completely streamlined my life. What I want to get out of the day.
00:12:16 Speaker 1: it is challenging. when art was my income, my kids were a lot younger and I scheduled time, but at that point I was married. so in theory, when they went to bed or when they were doing their bedtime routines, I was out doing my work. So from seven p m I was in the studio. We had a separate, uh, building on the property. And I would go out there and I would paint from seven p m till midnight or one a m or whatever, and then go back in and, go to bed kind of thing and get up early with the kids and all that. I was burning the candle at both ends. It was really, really challenging.
00:12:50 Speaker 2: Well, exactly. That is unrealistic. And, and then, you know, we, we could do a podcast on burnout and avoiding burnout. And especially if you have any neurodiversity that is even easier because you haven’t got that stop gap. I know that I have to go right the age I am. I cannot do as much as I did, but even when I was younger, I used to have a rule that if at all possible, I wouldn’t be working after six o’clock. Now, you know, it’s interesting you’re saying, oh, you block time off, but you were married, but you weren’t painting in the day.
00:13:29 Speaker 1: No, because I was working in my other business. I was running a tech. Yeah. So burning the candle at both ends and.
00:13:36 Speaker 2: All sides, not just both ends. All sides.
00:13:39 Speaker 1: Yeah. so when I transitioned from running a tech company full time and doing the art full time, so two full time businesses and the tech company, I dropped down. So within two years of starting my art business, the tech company was gone and I was just doing art full time and that became easier. But I was so used to painting at night, it was really challenging to flip it to during the day. My kids were older, a little bit older. They weren’t very young when I was doing the art, let’s put it that way. They weren’t. If they were two years old, I couldn’t have done it because my ex wouldn’t have watched them or watched them without complaining endlessly. They were older. But by the time it was my single only income, I was still used to painting at night. I didn’t have to put them to bed. They weren’t shoving Legos up the dog’s butt or whatever. Not that we ever had a dog, but like they didn’t need that constant supervision. But kids still need attention. So like I said, my youngest just went back to post-secondary. So suddenly I’m doing a school run again five days a week, but at least it’s not the same as, you know, going to the doing the school run or the elementary school run or whatever. But there is still that, okay, I’m the only person in the house that can do this. I’m the only person. So I’ve got to rejig my schedule. And I don’t resent it because I’m a big fan of higher education. I think educated people have more opportunities, but there is that. I’m the only one that can do it. Suddenly I’m I’m adjusting. So women get a lot of pressure on themselves for the family thing. When men walk off and disappear or Men don’t pay attention to their families. They don’t get the same crap that women get.
00:15:11 Speaker 2: also male artists, if they are working full time, they will have a studio and they will, they will probably behind them have a partner who is looking, if they have young kids who is doing all the childcare. forgive me if I am over generalizing and, you know, somebody who’s it’s different for a single dad who is managing to be a full time artist or whatever. But yeah, and I think a lot of the guilt, there’s guilt involved for women, they feel that they should never prioritize anything over their families, be their older, their parents, be it their siblings, be it their spouse, be it their partner, be it their children. it’s inbuilt with us. It’s entrenched from the moment that we’re born that that is going to be our rule. And if we want anything else on top of that, it’s down to you. you have to juggle.
00:16:18 Speaker 1: Yeah. and try to do everything and still be beautiful and well put together and all of that. It’s also interesting to me too, because I used to do shows that was a huge part of my income. I would do two to three shows a month, and I did that for about two and a half years till it burnt me out completely. As we said, we could do a whole podcast on burnout because I’ve burnt out in many ways in, uh. Oh, and sometimes doing the same thing over and over again. Um, but it’s interesting to me too, because when I would have men come up and look at the work that I was selling, the number of men who would come to me and then tell me how to run my business and pretend that they could save me, and that they knew anything about art was just stunning. Like the audacity of somebody with no experience or knowledge assuming that they could do stuff. I hold this this in my head anytime I feel hesitant about doing anything, because unlearning decades of beliefs and things we’re taught and things we see constantly in society is obviously challenging. And you have to constantly remind yourself. But I keep telling myself, as I try to do things that maybe scare me or make me more visible, is do it with the audacity of a middle aged man.
00:17:33 Speaker 2: you saying that. I was just thinking, you know, like if I go and see another artists exhibition or I go to a show, I don’t go around telling them that I’m an artist as well and telling them about my work. No, this is their moment. If you’ve come to see the show, you’ve come to see their show. I wouldn’t. It’s irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if I’m a plumber or I am. Whatever. You know, I wouldn’t go around. And yet the amount of men who go up to women and start talking about their art that they do in their spare time, or they did when they were kids. So we’re not talking about professional artists here. We’re talking about. Oh, I do some painting. Let me show you on my phone. Or my granddaughter does some painting. Have a look. You know, it’s like, no, you’re here at my show. why is it okay for you to come? And I’m like, a a fixed audience because I’m not moving away from my stand, from my exhibition, from my paintings, and I’m stuck And then you have the don’t be rude, don’t be rude. So you smack it. Oh, that’s really nice. Oh, I really like how you’ve done that. Oh, yes. They’re very talented. And you’re like, well, this shouldn’t this isn’t part of my business, but we have to take all these extra things on and tolerate that sort of behavior.
00:19:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And do they do that to the other men? I, I don’t know because I’m not a man, but I would think.
00:19:09 Speaker 2: Hey, man, if you’re listening, we love you. And can you please tell us if it’s happening to you?
00:19:15 Speaker 1: Man, listening at this point. But but that’s it is a reality to that, that we’re not taken seriously, that our time can be wasted. that it’s okay because we’re not going to go very far anyway. And although this is not art related, um,. When I was in high school, I switched high schools for the last two years. So for grades twelve and thirteen, I was at a different high school and my specialties were math and computer programming. I was really, really good at that. So I wanted to continue that in my new high school. And I ended up in a high school where the male math teachers didn’t think women were going to take it very far anyway. They were surprised to see girls at that point. I wasn’t an adult, but anyway, they were surprised to see teenage girls in their advanced math classes and programming classes. And my programming teacher would sit down after he gave the assignment next to me and talk to me while everybody else was doing the work. I was one of two girls in the class and he would just sit and talk to me. So I had to do all my work either like while nodding and smiling and trying to do it, or I would have to do it for homework.
00:20:15 Speaker 2: About what?
00:20:16 Speaker 1: Just general stuff I don’t remember because grade, grade twelve. So that’s like decades ago.
00:20:21 Speaker 2: Not about not about the task.
00:20:23 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it was just blah, blah, blah. He was just talking to me about anything because he didn’t think I was going to go far, which is insane because I had a twenty eight year career as a programmer. No thanks to him and his attitude. My math teacher again, this is a new school. He had no knowledge of my history. When I did really well on a math test, asked me if I cheated with no evidence to the contrary. Like that was the attitude. So. So being in a female body and being a woman immediately were not taken seriously by people who are in power, by people who have the ability to open doors or shut doors. Um, and then even by ourselves, because we’re taught that anything we do is a little bit silly. Anything we do is, is not to be taken seriously. So we’ve talked about this, I think in other episodes where we’ve seen, artist photos at shows and the women tend to be very apologetic. They’ll be standing next to their pictures and their head will be tilted and they’ll be looking like, you know, here I am, but please don’t take me seriously. Or, uh, don’t judge me too hard. Even though this is a great gallery to be in. They’ll be almost like their body language is very much like don’t hate me for my success. Whereas like we’ve said, the audacity of middle aged white men, um, end up walking around like I attended a show. I’m very successful not even having art in the show. They just own that, that audacity. and so one of the things that we are doing with our own photos and all that for the fifty one percent for our collective and for our show is to show up in our power and in our strength in those photos. We are damn good artists and we know it. And that’s not being egotistical. It’s not being unrealistic. We have worked really hard to get to this point.
00:22:04 Speaker 2: And we should all, no matter what your job is, if you don’t believe you’re very good at it, then you shouldn’t be doing it. Yeah, you’ve got to have self-belief in what you do. What you’re asking people to pay you for is able to, you know, so you should have that self Confidence if you don’t. What are you doing? Yeah.
00:22:30 Speaker 1: And examine where that comes from too, because we’re constantly taught to be humble, to not brag, to not have a great big ego. but the reality is, if you have a skill that you know you’re good at, whether you are a painter or whether maybe you are a bricklayer or whatever, own it, you don’t have to walk around saying, well, I’m the best thing, please worship me. But you just go, yeah, I can do that. Absolutely. I worked hard to get to this point. That’s the difference between ego and just owning your skills is subtle, but women tend to because we’ve internalized a lot of the misogyny and the patriarchy tend to be like, mm, I think I have talent in their head. They know they do. I think I can do this. You absolutely can. Like, we need to make sure that we question every time we make ourselves smaller. So not just in making time for making our art, but in how we show up with our art in online and in public spaces.
00:23:30 Speaker 2: And also, we have to be each other’s cheerleaders. if you see a woman whose work you love, make sure say, you know, this is amazing. You must be so proud. Go over the top. I mean, it’s weird. When I was teaching, part of the job was to encourage children to tell them, oh, you’re you’ve done so well on that because we all know of only a very small minority people thrive in in a negative critical environment. We know that we have to support each other and tell each other, oh, you look good today. You look amazing. you’re the best friend I’ve ever had. And on top of that, let’s buoy each other up as women to the skills that we have. And if they’re going. Oh, no, no, no, don’t say that. You know, actually pick people up because a lot of the time, I am convinced, is that women don’t even know that they’re being apologetic for who they are. They it just comes out automatically. Oh, it’s not that good or. Well, yeah. No. Yeah. You know, it’s like, no, come on, tell me, tell me. Let’s push each other in a positive way to own our talents and what we’re good at. I mean, when we were growing up, it was almost like parents were really, really anxious that they didn’t want their children to be conceited or big headed or, you know, show off. it was the sort of worst thing that you could be. So our parents back in the seventies and 80s were very hard on us. They didn’t give us that criticism. So we all came, grew up and were really anxious and thought we were no good at anything and have had to do absolutely loads of work on ourselves in order to turn that around. We now know differently. And sometimes it goes too much the other way where you’re telling children that they are brilliant at everything and you they can’t do anything wrong and this, that and the other. But there is a difference. If you focus on what your child or somebody you know, loves and does and, you know, keep buoying them up, they will succeed. So it’s as they say, not rocket science. It’s just this is how we need to be. And there’s still so much work to do as women, not just in the art industry, but in all spheres of life. let’s not go. Oh, look. Hooray! We’ve got five female members of parliament. That’s one more than ten years ago. It’s like, no, this isn’t good enough. Come on, come on guys. You know, we are the fifty one percent.
00:26:31 Speaker 1: Yeah. And we end up in environments that are potentially hostile. so rolling backwards, when I first became a professional computer programmer in the nineteen nineties, I was one of two in Toronto and that was it. And I would have to be in the rooms with the male programmers who were threatened by my existence. So she’s not really a programmer or whatever. And I would get my assignments or my jobs because freelancing and they would send me images and whatever I needed to do for the project. And then half the time there would be little images of dicks and all that in there too, to put me in my place or I would find myself, you know, left out of meetings I needed to be in. We have to still show up regardless. We have to.
00:27:12 Speaker 2: I think one of the the one of the worst ways of bullying and but, you know, is exclusion.
00:27:19 Speaker 1: Yeah. It is.
00:27:20 Speaker 2: You know, and we’ve all been victims of that. And that is horrific because that just makes you feel completely useless and not necessary.
00:27:31 Speaker 1: Yeah. And then we eat ourselves up. What did I do wrong? What did I do wrong? what did I say? How did I show up? we do eat ourselves up and, and criticize ourselves instead of saying, maybe I was in a room I don’t belong in, maybe I was in a space I don’t belong in. And this is something that you can’t see if he’s nodding at me because I with my experience with in-person networking, there is also that, exclusion that happens even from other women if they feel that you don’t belong in a space too. So we have to sort of turn the conversation around as artists and as women and say, okay, if they won’t, if they’re excluding me, am I in the right space? Do I actually need them? And what can I do to go around them? What can I do without them? So, so having that understanding, I think is the first step and then figuring out an alternative. So not begging to be where you don’t fit in, I think is also a good thing. We’re resilient. We’re resourceful as women in twenty twenty six. We have opportunities we’ve never had in the past.
00:28:38 Speaker 2: it’s like, what are we actually scared of? What is the worst thing that can happen. Okay. You know, the worst thing that can happen is that you’re in the wrong place. Your art isn’t selling because it’s not your right customers. That’s not going to destroy you. That is just like, okay, I don’t do a show in this space in like this again, because it’s not right for my art. Nothing wrong with the show. It’s just not the right place. So, you know, like the more if somebody comes along and says, oh, my three year old could do a painting like that, you know, we you just laugh and go, oh, that’s brilliant. They must be a genius then, you could be earning lots of money off them. Well done. You. when you go to what is the worst thing that can happen? if I put my prices up, what is the worst thing that can happen if I put photos of myself on social media? What is the worst thing that could do if I actually show my art, you know, you realize how illogical it is.
00:29:46 Speaker 1: Yeah. The worst thing that could happen if you start selling your art on social media, is that the people around you will get upset. So what? Are they paying your bills? You find out who your friends are. Are they being unpleasant to you?
00:29:59 Speaker 2: Your art is doing you a favor by weeding out those people who.
00:30:04 Speaker 1: Exactly. Marketing is sifting and sorting. You want to sift through and get the people who are the right buyers for your work. But when you’re posting on social media, you’re also sifting and sorting through your friends. And if they aren’t supportive, then are they really your friend?
00:30:20 Speaker 2: And we all know friends, friends, clients, uh, supporters, they’re all very different people. And, and I think people get muddled about friends. Yeah. You know what? Um, we had a conversation, didn’t we? A few weeks back, Paula, I said because I’d worked with kids, I’d done loads of work on what makes a good friend, what makes you a good friend? Why is your friend a good friend? Getting kids to analyze and understand the social interaction and the you know why, friends? Not everybody is your friend. And um, Paula said to me, I’ve never even thought about that. Just thought, okay, they’re my friends because I see them every day and we go out for coffee and we do this, that and the other because we do activities together, and it’s much deeper than that. But there are plenty of other people who serve all these other roles in your life. we’re not saying, oh, you know, hey, cut out the dead wood. I mean, you just go, okay, that person was a follower. That person, was sharing the same room as me at that point. Not a friend. it’s understanding that like anything, it’s a spectrum, a complete spectrum.
00:31:40 Speaker 1: Which is a good point. I think at the end of the day, we want this discussion to maybe trigger some awareness of self or awareness of attitudes or internalized misogyny as well, that, that when you sort of start examining what you sort of hold as true beliefs, then maybe you can change some of the things that have been holding you back, right? Like I think that that is an important step in creating success, whatever that looks like. As a woman who is an artist and in not taking on board somebody else’s criticisms or rejections or exclusion, but just saying, okay, this is data I need to. Yes, my feelings are hurt, but now what do I do with this data? How do I move around this person or this event or this whatever and create this success for myself? And then the same thing with how do I speak and think about my art as a professional? The internal voice talking to yourself and saying, I am a professional artist. My work sells, my work is salable quality, my work is good having that as well. But doing this consciously rather than unconsciously or subconsciously. I mix those two up all the time. But doing this consciously, intentionally, so that you can undo the things that aren’t working. As a woman who wants to maybe create a level of success, and actually I said, maybe I just put in a word that softens what I’m saying. If you want to create success for yourself as a woman, you need to take apart and unlearn things that you’ve internalized, and you either need to call out people who are in your way or work around them. There we go.
00:33:30 Speaker 2: women have to do that. And men. You know, in every stream of life. And I think it goes back to what we were saying about not taking your art as being your job. Because if it is your job, we all every job you take on a role. when you go and meet a mechanic because there’s something wrong with your car, you’re not there going, oh, how do I make friends with this person? How do I, you know? Yes. knowing the artist is important, but you’re still creating a persona, a work persona for being an artist. It’s not the whole self. You’re not showing you what you do when you’re with your mates and this, that and the other. It’s a persona. And I think once you’re aware of that and particularly as a woman, then you’re going to become more successful because it’s about the persona and that’s in any job that you do. If you go in and think, oh, I’ve just got to be friends with everybody. And you know, I’ve heard many and seen many people operate that on the people pleasing. I just got to, make friends with all the other artists. I’ve got to make friends. And there’s no way I’m advocating being rude or horrible to anybody. But it’s about being professional.
00:34:52 Speaker 1: We always have to keep in the back of our mind that if you tick somebody off, exclusion in the past obviously could mean death. But even today we do a level of people pleasing because then hopefully we won’t get murdered by either somebody randomly or by a partner or whatever. There is always that run in the back of our heads, even if we’re not aware of it. To smooth things out. Because for, for women, it can be a life and death thing. I’m not saying, keep people pleasing and keep yourself alive, but I am saying that’s a little bit dramatic, but I am saying like, we need to be aware of where it comes from, that if you’re at a gallery show, people are not likely going to run you through with swords. So, so you need to, to own your power as a professional and own your skill and just step up confidently and not and just don’t be a bag of dicks about it, but definitely be confident about it.
00:35:43 Speaker 2: don’t worry if you’re not pleasing everybody you’re there to make people think and communicate. we’re going to be talking on another episode about, having your own creative voice and how you foster that and how you use it, which all ties in with this self-confidence. Again, when we were brought up, there was no defined difference between not people pleasing and being rude. The idea was that you had to be polite to everybody. And I know in the past when I have, relationships and friendships have ended in the past, I would beat myself up and feel like I should have saved it. It was awful. It was all my fault. Now I accept it. I’m able to accept that those people were in my life for a certain length of time. If we’ve had a misunderstanding, I’m sorry, but it obviously our relationship was not strong enough for us to work that out or work through that, and that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with that. But I think it’s that idea of being rude to other people and trying to make everybody happy. It’s two different things. There is a middle ground which we were never taught at about when we were in school or as a child.
00:37:07 Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree. Never, never got taught that. the understanding too, that you can be the juiciest, best peach in the world and there’s still going to be somebody who doesn’t like peaches. So you can try to please everybody, but somebody will still not like you. But we all have that. We all have that. We have our choices. If you’ve ever met somebody and gone, I don’t really like that person without any evidence. That’s just it, right? We’re allowed to to have those choices. So to try to have a level of control to make everybody like you It doesn’t work because not everybody will like everybody. It just how it is. I had, a friend, friend? I put that in quotes because I understand friendship a lot better now that she has sat down and explained it to me. The joys of being friends with a person who is a teacher for a very long time is that they can inform you about things that you never realized you didn’t know. Then does that really, really beautifully. I think this is why our podcast is doing so well, because of the way you approach things and explain things for you. It’s really fantastic. Um, but I had a friend who for a couple of years. I was doing this show for, somebody in their community and they were doing it for free. It would take them all day. They would have to spend money on their setup to show up. They weren’t selling anything. They were there supporting this other person’s money making venture. And after we had talked, she said, you know what? This year I’m not going to do it. It takes too much energy. It costs me money, it costs me time, and I just don’t want to do it anymore. But I’m worried about what this person will say who is running the show. And I said, well, what they say will tell you whether they were actually your friend or not, whether they were actually somebody that that was using you or somebody who was giving you a chance to sort of spend time with them. And of course, so she went and said, you know what? Actually, I can’t do it this year. I have other obligations, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The thing blew up. So the the situation blew up. Um, that person running the show lost her absolute shit, had called this person names, said how what a terrible person she was.
00:39:09 Speaker 3: Now that is.
00:39:10 Speaker 2: Rude.
00:39:11 Speaker 1: That is absolutely rude. And a lot of us worry that if we stop people pleasing that that’s going to happen. Well, years later, my friend is still around. She’s still producing art. She’s still being awesome. She is absolutely freaking amazing. But she also now curates who’s in her world and she doesn’t people please the same extent. I will never say that we ever unlearn people pleasing because that would be unfair to people struggling with this, but we certainly can control it to a degree. I still find myself people pleasing to this day, and I do teach about it in to the artists I work with. Uh. But we still have to constantly readjust ourselves, constantly talk to ourselves differently, and be aware of it. Some people will be in your life because you are giving a lot, not because they like you, but because they can use you. And some people will be in your life because they genuinely will be in your life, whether you um, have all broken legs and arms and are nothing but a head talking to them or whether you can help them out. And the trick is to figure out who. So when you stop people pleasing, you can more easily figure out who’s in your life for the right reasons. But people pleasing is very much an issue that women have because we are taught to do it.
00:40:27 Speaker 2: we are seeing in the world today, you know, it’s not like we can rest on our laurels as women and go, oh, it’s okay. Things are so much better. There are so many threats in virtually every country in the world to women and women’s power and undermining it and making women smaller and, making women not feel confident to speak all those things. They are as relevant today as they were in Tudor times or, you know, whatever it we we are. Yes, there has been progress, but it’s not linear. it goes up and down. And at the moment, as women, we are in a very precarious position. And so we need to make sure that our voices are heard and that we are showing up. even though we are fighting against the odds, we can do it and particularly if we work together and support each other. That.
00:41:31 Speaker 1: And I think that that is a great place to end this episode because this is absolutely correct. the ongoing threats, you’re absolutely right to our freedoms, to our bodily choices, to our ability to move through spaces are real and they start with threats to communities that are vulnerable. So threats to trans people and they continue on because they won’t stop with one group. So speaking up, showing up with our art. Doing so with apparent confidence, even if you’re quaking inside. Run towards the things that scare you and do not soften to make other people comfortable. As we said, it’s a balance between people pleasing and being rude. You find that happy medium where you don’t apologize for being a professional artist. You don’t apologize for your skill, and you don’t apologize for occupying the space that you need as a human being with art. you take that space and own it So we have every right to take up the space that we need, but we have to take that space up. So if you have any comments or questions or anything about this podcast, feel free to put them in the comments below. Wherever you hear this episode, feel free to like and share with your friends. And don’t forget to subscribe to Art Crush on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon, audible, iHeart podcasts, and more. new episodes go out every week with interesting topics. If you would like us to cover a topic, we’re not going to promise that we will. But if there’s a topic you would like us to unpick, feel free to also put that in the comments as well and we will catch you in the next episode.
