Buckle up for a heavy-hitting bonus episode! In episode six of Art Crush, hosts Fi Marks and Paula Telizyn dive deep into the uncomfortable truths of the art world. They tackle the deeply ingrained colonial, misogynistic, and patriarchal rules that have historically dictated what is—and isn’t—considered “fine art.”
Triggered by Fi’s discovery that her textile-inspired paintings of women were being labeled as outsider art, this conversation rips the band-aid off the traditional art establishment. From the historical restrictions placed on female painters to the devaluation of functional crafts and the exploitation of Indigenous artists, Paula and Fi challenge listeners to critically examine why we classify art the way we do—and who those classifications actually serve.
What You’ll Explore in This Episode:
The Artist’s Responsibility: Why artists must stop waiting for audience approval, show up to their own gallery openings, and actively educate buyers to challenge their visual comfort zones.
The “Outsider” Label: Why calling non-traditional, non-Western, or self-taught art “outsider art” is a derogatory hangover from Victorian-era, white male standards.
The Hierarchy of Mediums: How the establishment arbitrarily elevates large oil paintings on canvas over acrylics, paper works, and historically “feminine” mediums like textiles and quilting.
Art vs. Craft: The double standard faced by creators of functional art (like iconic potter Clarice Cliff) and why Paula officially rejects the term “artisan market.”
The Gaze and the Subject: A look at how women are traditionally portrayed as objects to be admired under the male gaze, versus Fi’s approach of painting women simply existing in their own power.
Deconstructing the Rules
| Traditional Art World Norms | The Art Crush Perspective |
| Medium Hierarchy: Huge oil paintings on canvas reign supreme. | Equal Validity: Medium does not dictate value; textiles, paper, and acrylics are equally vital. |
| Categorization: Functional pieces (pottery, quilts) are merely “craft.” | Living Art: Purpose-built, everyday items have deep artistic merit and tell profound stories. |
| Colonial Framing: Non-Western or non-traditional art is “primitive” or “outsider.” | Decolonization: These labels uphold colonial hierarchies, exploit creators, and must be retired. |
| Audience Comfort: Art should easily match the neutral, safe decor of a modern home. | Bold Individuality: Homes (and the art within them) should be fiercely individual, challenging, and truly lived-in. |
“You need to fit into yourself. Not what anybody else is saying or deeming. Because it’s exactly the same as what we started off saying about the art world: ‘This is the only real art. This is the way you need to look.'” — Fi Marks
The Big Question for the Audience
If we reject the hierarchical, colonial structures of the traditional art world, how do we describe work that falls outside the mainstream without using limiting labels like “outsider art”? Paula and Fi leave the audience with a challenge: If your art isn’t considered “fine art” by the establishment, what label would you proudly give it?
00:00:00 Speaker 1: This is Art Crush with Fi Marks and Paula Telizyn, where we talk about art, um, art, making ideas, art history, and whatever crosses our minds.
00:00:23 Speaker 2: And this is like a bonus one because we suddenly realised we hadn’t done a really important, um, discussion that we’d had a couple of months back. So yeah.
00:00:36 Speaker 1: Deconstructing ideas about art. What is art versus craft? Um, colonial ideas, feminine art, misogyny in the art world. We’re covering the heavy stuff in this.
00:00:46 Speaker 2: So get your seatbelt on, get buckled up and get ready for the ride.
00:00:52 Speaker 1: Yeah. And whether you agree with us or not, hopefully this provides some food for thought because one of the biggest things I’ve noticed is that we are taught this is how certain things are and we are taught not to really question it. And I think it’s really important, especially now in an age where we are deconstructing a lot of our, um, standard narratives that we all should also should be deconstructing how we think about art and art classification. I think it’s really important.
00:01:22 Speaker 2: Definitely.
00:01:24 Speaker 1: Now you do art that would be easily dismissed because it’s very feminine. It’s based, um, inspired by textiles. It’s not textile art per se, but is based on textiles and women’s stories. So it is not considered art, art, fine art or whatever by the establishment or it wouldn’t be.
00:01:45 Speaker 2: Well, yeah. And I was really shocked to find this out. I hadn’t even thought, as far as I was concerned, I knew that it didn’t really have a genre when we talked about it. Um, you know, it sort of goes into the naive art, but then again, you see naive art. It’s not naive. Art is simple and it’s not simple. And I just sort of wore that as like a badge of honor that it, you know, it was, it was something different. But then somebody referred to it as outsider art. And I was like, what’s outsider art? And when I asked, they said, oh, you know, art that’s not that works on the, you know, outside the realms of what, you know, galleries show and what is, um, deemed as fine art as you just said. And I was like, well, why is that? That’s, that’s horrible. And I thought outsider art was such a derogatory term. It wasn’t something that I wanted to wear with a badge of honor. Um, and then that opened up the idea of, you know, that actually art from other cultures is often seen as that, you know, which is again. So we’re back to that Victorian white patriarchy, the people who put the Oxford Dictionary together and said, this is a real word, this is not a real word. Also sat around and went, well, this is art and this is outside art. This is not art.
00:03:24 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And humans love to classify things. But when we look at the classifications, you’re right. They’re very, very much based on a white male, um, British perspective that this is what we accept. Oil paintings on stretched canvas. Absolutely. Especially if they’re if they’re representational. Absolutely. Art, you know, chef’s kiss worth millions, whatever. Um, and, and then you sort of go down the lines because medium also matters just as much as subject matter, just as much as who painted or made the art. So I’m talking about paintings in particular right now. Um, just my area. So we look at um, oil paintings on stretched canvas are superior to acrylic paintings on stretched canvas. And artwork on paper is inferior, even though it may be just as beautiful. Watercolor on paper, gouache on paper, not quite that sort of top tier art.
00:04:20 Speaker 2: And I think as well, because of if you go back to sort of the nineteenth century, um, and even now when you go to museums and you see these pieces that are deemed art, they are huge. They are absolutely massive. Well, the reason that they’re so massive wasn’t just to impress, but it was because they were painted to be in huge, massive houses of aristocrats. They were the people who were buying these huge art. Even now, as we’ve talked in a previous Podcast about people buying original art. It still isn’t something that is seen as essential to everyday life. It is still seen. It still smacks a bit of elitism. We’re getting there slowly, but it is a very big uphill battle. But of course, now when you go to a museum and you see these huge, a huge stag or a huge, beautiful woman by the Pre-Raphaelites, it is like, wow. Because you wouldn’t have that in your house because your houses are too small. But it’s, it is still impressive, but it is of its time.
00:05:40 Speaker 1: Mhm. Yeah. We’re still carrying the the judgments from it. You know, if we, if we think about um, craft, for example, so art, purpose built art. So whether it’s, um, somebody making mugs out of clay or sewing tapestries or whatever. These are art pieces that are also designed to serve a purpose and be functional. Functional, I think is actually better than purpose built. Um, they are not seen as fine art unless they’re overly decorated and, uh, and, you know, essentially not used, but, but still functional, which is challenging.
00:06:18 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think it’s, it’s really interesting because one of those people who bypassed that, but I’m, I’m not sure she knew she was going to is Clarice Cliff. Clarice Cliff, um, created her pottery or painted her pottery and wanted it to be for everyday people instead of having these beautiful Wedgwood, um, sets. And, you know, that cost a fortune that only very rich people, she wanted everybody to have, um, available Nice utensils. But in fact, her work has become so iconic and now original. Clarice Cliff, in good condition in the antique market, makes a huge amount of money. It’s completely ironic, but, you know, like, she wasn’t regarded as an artist in her time.
00:07:13 Speaker 1: Mhm. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, she had the double whammy of being a woman and making something functional so that that sort of, you know, negated her her status as an artist. But I think we need to take this, this stuff apart. Because when I talk to artists online, I look at their pieces and stuff. They they all want to differentiate between art and craft and art and artisan. I hate the word artisan. I think it’s, it’s a.
00:07:39 Speaker 2: I don’t even get me started on the word artisan. Yeah. Artisan markets.
00:07:44 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, we’re artist markets. That’s it. Bang. Done. Because people are afraid to assume the title of artist as though it. It’s something that is only for a very few who create a certain kind of work. Um, and I think that art needs to be more inclusive that when we, we categorize things, it diminishes the works as a whole, that there’s only certain things that are acceptable and certain kinds are acceptable. I’ve worked with tapestry, um, artists who work with fabric and create beautiful scenes and everything. They struggled to have their work recognized as valuable, much less as art.
00:08:24 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that’s definitely, definitely true. Which was the reason, which again, we mentioned in a previous podcast, why I took textiles as my inspiration for my decoration, because it has been seen as being done by women in the home. So therefore, not even being regarded as art form until later dates, it was just part of everyday housewifery or whatever you want to call it, you know? And yet the work is so, so beautiful, as you say. Like you look at patchwork quilt quilting and the amazing things that women have made in the past and they just haven’t, haven’t been recognized. But also there is a little bit about as, like I say, going back to the historical side that it was seen at some point perhaps that there were female artists, there were women doing things. They actually had a higher status until the Victorians came along and said, no, anything a woman does is not important anymore. So we do have to bear that in mind. I don’t think it was like easy to be a female artist pre nineteenth century, but it became much, much worse. And then you’ve got the problem that women had that they weren’t allowed to do life drawing. They were only allowed to paint botanical flowers and still life. They weren’t allowed to do life drawings.
00:10:12 Speaker 1: Yeah. The delicate, uh, sensitivities of women couldn’t be offended, you know, like. Exactly. Yeah. So there were limitations on only on what women could create, but also where they could show and whether their work could even be sold. There’s all sorts of issues. And, uh, and then we look at to, um, when you look at representational art of women, we see the male gaze even in pieces painted by women because it’s normalized that women are, are held up as on pedestals, as objects to be admired or lusted after or whatever. Um, and we rarely see women portrayed in and art just existing being, you know, unselfconsciously themselves. One of the reasons why I like your paintings so much is like this podcast series, almost like a love fest here. But I love your paintings so much because.
00:11:02 Speaker 2: Please, no, stop.
00:11:05 Speaker 1: The women aren’t they’re not posing. They’re not they’re not being sexual in any way. They’re just existing as women in the moment that you’ve captured them, whether they’re looking back at the viewer or looking away, or whether they’re going through a period like I’m looking up at, um, Morgan le Fay, um, that piece you did a few years ago, and she’s not really looking at the viewer. She’s looking at something over the viewer, past the viewer. Yeah. Um, but she’s not standing around going, you know, does this dress make me look fat? She’s on her way to do a thing, right? Like it’s, it’s that moment that you capture of women. And I think as artists, as, as female artists, we have to be very mindful of all of what we’ve taken in as to not only what’s valuable and what kind of art we should be making, but also how we portray our own gender. Um, in the pieces, regardless of the medium we use.
00:11:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is important. And I mean, there’s a, there’s a whole book there about how women have been used in art. Uh, be it as a model, be, you know, be it, you know, that actually just as a subject matter, you know, that’s, that’s another whole area. Um, but going back to what we started talking about, I say we, when we, we say about looking at art from other cultures and, um, how that is deemed, um, I think that we are aware that in the countries where this art is made, it has been increased in value, You know, hugely. There are huge collectors of it. But in the Western world, it still doesn’t have the provenance of still that white male Victorian view of what high quality art is.
00:13:08 Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, yeah, we could, I’ve seen description words of, of um, non-Western art as being primitive or tribal or quaint. All of these words are derogatory. Um, didn’t you just paint somebody who, a female artist who went off back to her own country and became very famous? Or am I thinking of the wrong person? Um, you just painted someone. She was in France or whatever for a bit.
00:13:36 Speaker 2: Oh, she was somebody, I think I was, uh, yes, somebody I was researching. I haven’t painted her yet. Okay. But yeah. Was she, she was Algerian.
00:13:44 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:13:45 Speaker 2: I, found it, and unfortunately, I can’t remember what her name is. But yes, I was looking at work, her work, and again, she was quite well regarded. But nobody knows of her.
00:13:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s the issue. I mean we have a lot of artists I think that we have nowadays. I think we have the opportunity for more artists than ever to be out there. And I’m not talking about like this excludes AI entirely. People who have access to art supplies that are affordable. We have more free time than people have had in the past. We have more access to training online and through connecting in groups. We have more artists now than we ever have had before in recent history because it is really accessible now. Um.
00:14:33 Speaker 2: And a lot of people who are over the age of sixty are taking it up as like a new career almost. They always wanted to do art but didn’t have the opportunities. And if you go to a lot of art fairs, then that group of people are very well represented.
00:14:58 Speaker 1: Yeah, that that whole I had to live my life the way I was told it needed to be lived. And now I finally have the freedom and money and time to be able to do that, especially when it comes to women who raise children and all that. We when we put our kids in daycare or babysitters or with nannies or whatever, we’re seen as abandoning our kids, whereas men don’t have that stigma attached to them. Um, I know when I was creating a lot of art, I had to decide for myself that one of my boundaries was that I didn’t need to clean the house before I went to my studio. I battled with that a lot because it was a sort of, I have to earn my time in the studio by, you know, doing the work in the household ahead of time. But you can never like that work never ends. You can clean it. And the kid comes by with, you know, a handful of dirt and there you go. That’s the end of that.
00:15:45 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah, it it’s not important. It’s your space and art is work. You know, that’s how I look. Look at it. It is my priority. That is what I focus on. It is not a side hustle. It is not something I just do for my own benefit. And that’s how. But I still feel that I just like you, that you have to justify it. That you have to say, okay, my heart, my house is a mess because I work in this space and I’m an artist, you know, and it’s like, you shouldn’t have to know.
00:16:22 Speaker 1: You shouldn’t have to. So, so for, for artists who are making the non traditional non fine art kind of thing, um, and they’re busy deconstructing themselves. We know the audiences aren’t doing that work or they aren’t doing it in a way that also includes the art world. How do they show up? because, I mean, you’ve been doing this for several years now, showing up and and putting your art in front of people. How do you talk about your art? How do you educate your audience to accept it as legitimate art?
00:16:54 Speaker 2: Um, well, very commonly, if I, if I am doing a face to face show, one of the comments I hear probably most of anything is like, wow, that’s different. Which of course means absolutely nothing. So I often jump on that and go, yes it is. I’m really proud that it’s different and start then telling the stories. And once I start, I say it is representing women, it is telling stories. It is very political in the way these women’s voices have been silenced. And then they just go, oh, oh, you know, so it’s quite it is quite interesting. But I think going back to it’s about risk taking about what you want on your walls as well, which goes back to something else we discussed. Um, you know, I think once I get that explanation out, people are very like, oh, that’s so interesting. Dee dee dee dee dee dee. But whether they want that hanging on their walls is debatable. Now I know, obviously this is why we have so many different genres of art and different, you know, there’s enough space for all artists because people have different likes, dislikes. But still. And I’m not that I. If pet portraits were sold for five hundred pounds a piece, they would be the richest artists in our country at the moment. Because people love a pet portrait. Unfortunately, they are not charged very much for them. The artists that do that, I’ve heard that they do them for free. I’ve met artists who, who just do them for free. Um, or they’re charging fifty pounds, thirty pounds and you know, but suddenly so it’s like, yes, it’s accessible, but it is also we’re looking at pictures of dogs and cats in particular, who in a very still in that very photographic way, people want them to look like their pet. You know, it could be photorealism, you know, and they’re then regarded as they’re such good artists. Look at this. Look at this picture of my dog. My cousin did this. It’s so amazing. And it’s like, it’s, it’s about art is about challenging yourself. And, you know, sometimes you, you look at something and you don’t know why you’re drawn to it, and if you then question it and go, oh, it’s because this, this and this. And I think there was something that I said to you, which I’d completely forgotten about. The first piece of original art I ever bought was an Aboriginal piece of art back in. Must have been about nineteen ninety five, and I was living in Australia and I wanted a piece of Aboriginal art. I went to Alice Springs, but I was determined that I got a female artist, which is really interesting that I did that way back then. You know, we’re going back thirty years. And I was like, but I want it by a female artist. But it still was really, really difficult because I remember going around Alice Springs and wanting it to be ethical because all the galleries there tended to be run by white Australians, And you had to really dig. You were like, well, have you just gone and bought all this Aboriginal artwork? You’ve paid a pittance for it and now you’re trying to get more. And there’s that sort of abuse of indigenous people and their work. Um, and I remember being aware of that even back in nineteen ninety five. But you know, people are now more like, oh, well, it’s a bargain. You know, I got this cost me next to nothing. And you’re like, well, that’s wrong.
00:21:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. It’s not saving money when you’re, when you’re exploiting somebody who’s already vulnerable and, uh, and just trying to make a living. So yeah.
00:21:24 Speaker 2: I really, really hope that in Australia now there are far more galleries being run by the indigenous population population. I really, really do. I don’t know, I haven’t been back recently, but somebody could tell me.
00:21:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I think it’s important as people go through their, um, um, journeys of deconstructing, you know, art and learning to look at art, that, that being accepting challenge and challenging. What’s acceptable is really critical. But we as artists have to be the ones that start this conversation. It’s not going to be started by people who are looking for something nice to put over their couch. Um, it’s not going to be started by somebody who doesn’t want or doesn’t realize they should be challenged. They want something easy, which is why representational art is so easy to sell. It’s easy to make. There’s no questioning. There’s no, um, you know, wondering what the artist is trying to say. There it is a mountain and, and the sky kind of thing. Um, and so we need to, to do our part as artists to help our audience, the ones who are ready, um, deconstruct what they think of art and what they should be doing to look at art and consuming art. So yeah, this is this is a first start. This conversation is like barely the beginning, the first start of thinking about.
00:22:49 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I mean, I think you, we could even do a whole series about it because it is, it’s so important. And, you know, it’s going back to as an artist when you, you, you know, as you always say, Paula, finding out the why, but also like this wine needs to go into like, why am I drawn to this picture? Why, what is it trying to communicate? It’s not just an image and all that work, you know, from all different cultures or whatever. It is all telling a story. It is all got something to say. And if we don’t ask what that is, then we’re not even getting off first base.
00:23:37 Speaker 1: Yeah. And we’ve we’ve failed the artist because the audience is just as much a part of the artist. Um, the art as the artist is, right? Our consumption of it, our understanding of it, our, our, um, exploration of it is important. Otherwise what’s the point? Right. Most artists, not all because there’s always exceptions, but most artists don’t make art with the intention of hiding it. Right. We, we usually have something to say with it. We usually want to have that connection with somebody and, and, um, have them enjoy it, even if we’re not present for it or have them consume it, even if we’re not present for it. The number of art show openings that I participated in, um, where I was part of the artists that were in the, the gallery where the artists didn’t show up was shocking, right? No, I always wanted to see what people had to say about the art, even if I felt very uncomfortable being there and awkward and whatever. I always went to the art show openings because they were really important to me, because reactions of the audience sort of feed creativity in a way. Are you lighting them up? Are you challenging them? Are they walking by and not noticing? Have you missed catching attention? Like, there are huge amounts of information in the art show openings, not just, um, how an artist feels about standing around and being awkward, right? We get a lot of data from interaction.
00:25:01 Speaker 2: Absolutely. And it’s part of your job. You know, it’s not a you guess you could be doing your market research, but also you as an artist, it’s part of your job to talk to potential buyers, to talk to these people could be wanting to buy stuff if they just saw it and they didn’t know. And, but talking to the artist actually adds that kudos, that extra depth, oh, we met this artist and we bought something off them. You know, it, it’s it’s it’s it’s huge. I don’t like it. That’s one reason why when I do exhibitions, I find it quite hard because it’s like I walk away. I have no, not that I’m a control freak, but I haven’t got anybody who is explaining it in the way that I would explain about it.
00:25:49 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, and that connection that you feel you create with your, your viewers is really important, not just personally, but also through your art. So yeah, I think you, you end up missing out if you don’t attend your openings and you don’t, you don’t show up because it also shows a lack of interest too. Yeah, but it’s really common here. It’s serious.
00:26:13 Speaker 2: Wow, I can’t believe that. I don’t I don’t think I’ve heard of that over here.
00:26:17 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it’s it’s really common here. People will get too hung up on on feeling awkward about being there. Um, get over yourself and get over there and show up and be proud of your work. That’s, that’s in the, in the show. Um, it’s really important, but it’s also important because you can talk about people’s expectations of art and start training the general public to look at different kinds of art and to change their views about art and challenge their views about art. So we can start losing this, this Victorian, very one sided, what is acceptable and what isn’t, and what am I willing to put effort into? And what am I not? What am I willing to show in my house? And what am I not? You know, I’d like to challenge houses in general. Maybe we should stop with the neutral palette and make my house saleable and actually live in it. Maybe you should have a six foot tall stuffed fake stuffed giraffe in the corner. And maybe you should have a kitchen full of gnomes. I hate gnomes, but maybe that works for you. Maybe you.
00:27:16 Speaker 2: Should.
00:27:16 Speaker 1: Be like, go live in your houses and turn them into art and and dress yourself in a way that isn’t Instagram ready and be kooky about it and whatever, and treat ourselves, our bodies as art too. Maybe we should just throw it all out and.
00:27:32 Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely and be, you know, and that’s the thing. I mean, there is that drive to be yourself. But again, it’s it’s by a very small minority. And particularly if you look, I mean, again, you know, like right from the get go, I always, I mean, I love fashion, I always dressed differently from everybody else, probably from my early teens when my mother stopped buying my clothes. But, you know, or I had a say in what I wore or, you know, whatever, because it’s, it’s so important. But as you say, then people just think, oh, you’re a bit, you get put in a box, don’t you, as, oh, they’re really arty farty or they’re, they’re a bit out there or they’re this, that and the other. And I think particularly with social media, particularly for young people. It’s it’s really hard. If you don’t fit in normal, you don’t. It’s. You shouldn’t feel. I don’t even like the word fit in. You shouldn’t. You’re not. What are you fitting into?
00:28:42 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:43 Speaker 2: You need to fit into yourself. Not what any anybody else is saying or deeming. Because it’s exactly the same as what we started off saying about the art world is this is the only real art. This is the way you need to look. This is what your house should look like, you know, bland, bland. Bland. Bland. Bland.
00:29:06 Speaker 1: Exactly. Oh, it’s so light and airy in here. No, I want my house to be dark with black walls and whatever. Like, let’s get on with it. Let’s, let’s, let’s challenge everything because everything is art. Um, but, you know, we, we need to challenge, I think in small doses, I, I think most people aren’t ready for the challenge, but it starts by educating, it starts by showing work that is different. It starts by creating work that is different, and then making people take a second look right and making them take a third look and then being relentless, which is what you’ve done through your career is you’ve you’ve painted what you’ve painted, how you’ve painted it, and people can like it or lump it.
00:29:46 Speaker 2: Exactly. Believe in your work. Why are you doing it otherwise? Yeah. If you think what you’re creating is rubbish and nobody would want it, why are you doing it?
00:29:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that’s it. I, I got a newsletter from someone recently, one of the influencer people. I follow business influencer people. And they were saying, you know, we used to make fun of people who would get up at five a m and start their day with a tonne of exercise and only eat kale and whatever. And now it’s the norm. People are so busy following these, these trends and all that. The people who, who make a difference in their world and their businesses or, or, you know, as influencers or whatever, are the ones who don’t do what everybody else is doing. Yeah, right. They’re the first ones to buy those awful new boo boos. And, um, you know, the first ones.
00:30:36 Speaker 2: No, I want a boo boo. Oh, I’ve got one for my birthday because now I know they come from where the wild Things are. They, they’re totally acceptable.
00:30:47 Speaker 1: Okay. Well, but but it’s it’s people who start these things. Everybody sort of follows. Right.
00:30:53 Speaker 2: Exactly. I was the one, the Maurice Sendak like, oh, where? Oh my God, that’s my one of my favorite children’s books, you know?
00:31:03 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:31:04 Speaker 2: Not because everybody else was it. That was what the selling point for me.
00:31:08 Speaker 1: Yeah. It takes guts though, to walk differently and do differently and whatever. And, and most people are followers. So when you show up with your unique style of art, which I’ve looked at at this point now thousands and thousands and thousands of people.
00:31:23 Speaker 2: I apologize for that.
00:31:24 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, you’re not responsible for the thousands. I’ve looked at other artists, I’ve been to shows I’ve, you know, been to my own shows and I’ve been online looking at art and all that. There’s nobody doing what you’re doing at all.
00:31:35 Speaker 2: No. And I wear that. That is like my catchphrase. Yeah. You won’t have seen art like this before.
00:31:42 Speaker 1: Yeah. Does it make it hard to sell? Maybe a little bit more challenging because you have to educate and then teach people that they want it and everything else. But ultimately, you aren’t lumped in with the typical, um, acceptable, fine art crowd of the same old boring pap. Like it just, it’s just, you know.
00:32:03 Speaker 2: So let’s to end this podcast. Yeah. Let’s think. Right. If we’re going to get rid of that horrible word outsider art.
00:32:13 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:32:15 Speaker 2: Do we want a label on it? First of all, and if we do, what do we want that label to be? If we owned it.
00:32:26 Speaker 1: Right. So instead of outsider art in general, um, we don’t want a negative label. Like immediately I think of challenging or, or whatever. That’s a negative label, right?
00:32:38 Speaker 2: Exactly. Because we’ve had this before when we’ve been talking about names for my exhibitions, haven’t we? I’m thinking like, that’s a bit negative.
00:32:46 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, we don’t want to, we don’t want to be negative. So anybody who’s doing outsider art, um, it’d be interesting to hear what you think of, um, what you would prefer to have your art labeled as not just fee’s art, but anybody who’s been sort of labeled as outsider.
00:33:03 Speaker 2: Oh, does anybody has, you know, because as I said, for me, that was a shock. I’d never heard that expression. And I was like, what? What do you mean? Now it has anybody are there any artists out there who embrace that or call it that themselves? Or is it just a label that people who don’t make it give?
00:33:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve only known one other person, um, who did outsider art, and he liked calling it outsider art, but he liked also his position as being outside of the mainstream. It was part of his personality. Um, he was ended up being reprehensible. So I mean, not a good representation at all, but, um, yeah, it’s, it’s a tough one. Like I like classifying my art. My art currently is very surrealistic. I like wearing that badge. I’m a surrealist artist.
00:33:56 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And a lot of people do embrace that.
00:33:59 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:34:00 Speaker 2: Whereas I created my art and then it was like, well, I’m not sure what category it fits. Yeah.
00:34:07 Speaker 1: Folk art. It’s not naive art. It’s not it’s representational. But to slap on a label like we can’t call it Fauvism or Impressionism or whatever, because it’s not, um, illustrative maybe, but I.
00:34:21 Speaker 2: Again, illustrative. Yeah, but it’s all on canvas.
00:34:24 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes. It’s not illustrative.
00:34:25 Speaker 2: Will be in books. And you know, I’m not illustrating somebody’s story. Yeah. You know, previously written. I’m telling the story, the style.
00:34:36 Speaker 1: But I am curious. So so wherever this podcast is, if you can comment, I’m curious about what people would call their own art. If it’s not considered mainstream, how would you classify it in order to describe it to somebody for the first time? So that that’s an interesting thing. And how would you do so in a way that didn’t reinforce the current acceptable forms of art, um, that we are trying to deconstruct and decolonize so that all forms of art become acceptable and have equal weight, rather than the hierarchical structure that we currently have right now, especially in 2D art. So that’s, that’s, I think a good place to the, this episode of the podcast. Um, but that’s our surprise bonus episode where we talk Talking circles don’t resolve anything, but hopefully leave you thinking, yeah. Leave our audience with thoughts. Um, and maybe challenge what has been accepted as the norm. Um, because I don’t think it’s fair for us to even have answers for everything we do fit into a demographic.
00:35:42 Speaker 2: No, we’re just talking round things and I’m, I’m still sitting here mulling over why do we need categories? Why? I mean, and I feel very much the same even about, you know, titles. I hate the any term. Mr.. Mrs.. Miss. You know what? Any of those get rid of the lot. Just call us by our names. Why do we need a title? You know, and it is it it’s a similar thing right.
00:36:10 Speaker 1: But scientifically we’ve also categorized things as well. We have we have all sorts of ways of breaking down, um, flora and fauna into categories. We have ways of breaking down time periods and you know, historically as well.
00:36:24 Speaker 2: But we as humans, we’ve evolved that.
00:36:28 Speaker 1: Yeah. But that’s, I think because our brains like to be efficient. Right?
00:36:32 Speaker 2: Maybe my brain isn’t as efficient.
00:36:34 Speaker 1: Your brain is super creative, but let’s wind up this episode for Art crush. And I have been talking with artist Free Marks who makes incredibly unique arts. Arts makes incredibly unique art. You can find her artwork at free marks dash art dot co dot UK, so you can take a look and let her know what category her art should be called. Um, take a look at a lot of the paintings and all that. There’s a lot of really good stuff there. And I am Paula, also an artist and art business mentor. And this has been art crush. Thank you for listening.
