Is “Bread and Butter Art” a compromise or a smart business strategy? In this episode of Art Crush, Fi Marks and Paula Telizyn tackle the age-old struggle: making the art you love versus making art that sells.
We explore the reality of creative entrepreneurship and whether artists have a duty to challenge their audience or a necessity to pay the bills. Join us as we discuss art marketing strategies, finding your niche in the fine art market, and how to build a sustainable art career without losing your creative soul.
00:00:00 Speaker 1: This is Art Crush with artist Fi Marks and artist Paula Telizyn, Where we talk about what it means to be a professional artist It’s a great listen for anyone who’s interested in art, art, businesses, the art world and creativity.
00:00:28 Speaker 1: Sophie, this is going to be our second episode. We want to thank everybody again for taking the time to listen and also making series two possible by listening. this is really exciting.
00:00:40 Speaker 2: It is, it is. I’m really excited to see where this goes. And as you say, thank you to everybody for their listening. And even more big thank you for sharing it amongst the artist community.
00:00:53 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we definitely appreciate that. This this episode is going to be an interesting one because we are going to talk about should you make bread and butter art? So should you make your art? Make art that’s palatable for people to buy or make art that you actually want to make? And I think that’s a really important discussion, because fi and I have both been separately at tons of art shows, gallery openings and various venues, and you see a lot of the same old, same old, same old. So why don’t you kick us off?
00:01:24 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, um, I find it really interesting. we are not firm believers of. You have to have your art in a gallery, in order for it to sell. that doesn’t mean that I haven’t had conversations with galleries, but in my experience, quite a few of the galleries that I have spoken to have said, oh, it’s very different from what we have the rest of the art as if that’s a bad thing or, well, this was when I when I heard quite recently. Well, we only actually show landscapes and animals now again, we can easily throw up our hands and go, well, it’s not the right place for us. But yeah, it’s like that narrow expectation is just absolutely stultifying. It’s like saying, right, this supermarket only sells cheese and apples, so you can’t have anything else because that’s what everybody likes. Everybody likes cheese and apples. There’s no point in selling anything else. Um, because nobody nobody likes it. I find it absolutely mind boggling.
00:02:47 Speaker 1: we end up in a society where we get the same stuff. So if we take the grocery analogy further in Canadian grocery stores in twenty twenty five, we actually have in most stores a very limited range of produce available. You can buy apples, you can buy oranges, you can buy mangoes, you can buy avocados and then carrots, onions, potatoes and celery. And that’s it. There’s the odd thing here or there, but if you want to go and get anything other than the basics, you have to go to a specialty store, an Asian grocery store, a European grocery store, whatever to get the other stuff. And people don’t realize what they’re missing if they don’t go to the Asian grocery store because holy crap, there’s so much produce there, there’s so much choice and variety. And the price points are also very different as well, oftentimes significantly lower. but most people will just go to their local neighborhood store, buy their white bread, buy their apples, buy their cheese and leave and never know what they are missing. And when we continue to perpetuate that idea of art as landscapes, art is portraits. Art is abstract. Here’s some paint poured. Or here’s some, um, things scratched into wood or whatever. Then nobody will know what they’re missing. They won’t know what they’re missing, and artists won’t know people who have been called to be creative. Stop being creative and actually just churn out what sells. And yes, we have to make a living. Unfortunately, we we live in a society where universal basic income isn’t a thing yet. But man, it would be great if it was. but there should still be room for creativity. There should still be room for art that challenges art that makes you do some work to consume it. Art that requires effort and attention. We can see this also in movies. All the sequels, the millions of sequels. Do I need another Ghostbusters? No. Do I need another Star Wars? No. As a former avid Star Wars fan, please stop with the freaking Star Wars. You know, like, it’s just the same stuff over and over and over again. Artists should be different art should. Artists should be creating work that challenges. So I’m going to pull up your work specifically fee as you sit here quietly listening to me. Your art is representational, but it is not like anything I’ve seen. And I’ve seen tens of thousands of artists worth of art over the years. and I’ve not seen anybody create in your style. I’ve not seen anybody create with the attention to detail. Your work on first glance looks. Oh. What’s that? It’s okay. I wouldn’t hang it in my living room. And then if the person actually stops and looks, they see all the detail you’ve put into it. They see all the story behind it, they understand what you are portraying, and then they look again and see more and look again and see more that your work challenges people to stop and not just go, that’s nice. Scroll on. That’s nice. Scroll on. You actually have to stop and pay attention. Should artists, you know, make art that’s palatable for audiences? I’d say no. What’s the point of being mean otherwise?
00:05:53 Speaker 2: It’s I mean, it’s it’s. And if you go back to it is, all the arts is all about communication. I believe passionately that you need to have a message. You need to have something to say. You need to your art to tell a story. It doesn’t necessarily have to be easy. it’s not. Oh, yes, that’s it. and I think it goes back to something we discussed before about the way that you look at art. It is not just a picture on a wall that blends in with your furniture. You can have that. But that’s not telling you the story, you know? And it’s like you’ve got to listen. And it’s like challenging yourself in conversations with people. If we all just made small talk all the time, we’d all go a little bit crazy. we want interesting conversations. We want to watch interesting things on the television, be they fiction or non-fiction. We want interesting books. It’s a human instinct to want to be challenged. But we’re being told, maybe again, this could be by the powers that be that we shouldn’t be doing that. We just need to listen and follow instructions. That’s not right. That’s not what being a human is all about.
00:07:16 Speaker 1: No, I think, if I bring my inner nerd out even more. We are designed to boldly go. If we weren’t, we wouldn’t have explored outside of the continents where our species emerged or the various other human species emerged as well. we would have stayed in Africa and Asia and and just been happily doing whatever our primate ancestors did. So, we we are designed to be curious, to want to satiate. Satiate. our desire to know more, to stretch. We do better when we are challenged. And I think that that yes, there’s a place for landscapes, but there’s a place an even more important place for people who are doing new things,
00:08:03 Speaker 2: Oh, the times, if I’m doing a show, the times I hear people go, oh, that’s a bit different. Oh, I haven’t seen anything like that before. And I just go up with a big grin and go. Exactly. and you won’t, there is nobody that authority, as far as I am concerned, know that, uh, paints like me. And even though when people desperately try and put me in a pigeonhole. I mean, as you know, the amount of times I say, oh, it reminds me of Klimt. And I’m like, what? It’s got a woman in it. Maybe it’s got a bit of gold in it. It’s got pattern, but not in the same way. It’s it’s almost like people want to compare you to other artists or other people. And it’s like, no, this is a female originally. I’m not. I love Gustav Klimt. I love his work. But that doesn’t mean that I am replicating his style. But people almost like they think they’re being really clever to say that. Honestly, I have to sort of smile and go, hmm, yes, I’ve heard that before. But it’s like it baffles me that people think that I’ve actually sat there and gone, I’m going to paint like Klimt. Yeah. No artist, no creative person would ever do that.
00:09:28 Speaker 1: No, exactly, exactly. But it’s it’s a lazy way of looking at things. Right. Because our brains try to be so efficient that if we can go. Okay, you’re like Klimt now, I can understand you. I don’t have to take a second, third and fourth look. Then it’s easier for them. But we’re saying that as artists, I think it’s our job to be challenging. I think it’s our job, to to make people uncomfortable in some way. And discomfort doesn’t have to be through being offensive.
00:09:57 Speaker 2: Oh, gosh. No, no.
00:09:59 Speaker 1: This discomfort can come from making somebody stop and understand that they need to take a second or third look that that they can’t see it all.
00:10:05 Speaker 2: I think challenging you. We want to challenge people rather than make them feel discomfort. Obviously some subject areas might. But yeah, I think it’s about that element of challenging challenging what you thought. Um, and also I hadn’t realized how few people do figurative art these days.
00:10:30 Speaker 1: Mhm.
00:10:31 Speaker 2: No. Like I was doing an exhibition with a group of other artists and I was the only person doing figurative art. And I thought is this a trend. Is this that people don’t, when has portraiture and figurative art suddenly taken a back seat to abstract animals and landscapes?
00:10:57 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, having done landscapes before and lots of animal portraits, I can tell you that figurative art is more challenging. Right? It’s requires more time and effort in to get really, really good at it. And I think we’re in a time where, we’ve been trained to not have as much attention and to not work for the longer outcome. I’m not talking the ten thousand hours bullshit to be a professional or whatever that you have to do to in order to be an expert, ten thousand hours of learning or whatever. But you do need to put more effort into, creating figurative art. You know, the works that you’ve done over the last how long has it been? Six or seven years. since you started, your your style has changed. It’s been more complicated. It’s become more intricate and more involved, as you’ve learned. But you started with figurative right from the get go.
00:11:49 Speaker 2: Yeah, I it never even occurred to me. And it’s quite interesting because, as you know, Paula, I do do workshops and I work with young people. And so I do sometimes do, like animal art with them or whatever. Interestingly, I mean, I say I could take this very personally, but when I post on social media, a picture of a hare or, whatever, suddenly I get an awful lot of people go, oh, I love this, I love this, you know? So I could think, you know what? I’m going to stop doing my women. I’m going to stop telling these women’s stories. I’m going to just paint hairs. That’s all. I’m going to paint, because that’s going to sell. And it’s like, no, I don’t want to do that. This is what my is. The essence of my work is that these stories need to be told, and these women deserve to be seen and heard. I don’t feel the same about painting a hair, and that’s no disrespect to any artist out there who does paint animals. you’ve got your own stories to tell, but it’s just not what I do. But it’s become so acceptable, you know? I mean, even when when people are starting out, the amount of time virtually every artist has been asked, oh, do you do pet portraits? Oh, could you do a picture of my dog. Could you do a picture of my cat? And, some artists will go, yeah, I can do that. it takes quite to to actually turn down work and go. No, that’s not what I do.
00:13:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know I’ve, I’ve been asked to do a range of things now I, I love the pet portraits. For me it was never my focus, but it was, something I did a lot of commissions for because they’re one step away from portraits. And that was my focus, until I got bored of doing portraits. Once I mastered, it was kind of like, okay, same formula over and over again to achieve the outcome, and I lost interest in it. But I think, I think this sort of goes to a larger issue of, as artists, are we doing things because they’re socially acceptable, because they, garner support and, I don’t know, a lack of judgment. So we’re doing the safe route because your neighbor and the grocer down the street and all that, they will totally understand your work. Therefore, I will be seen as a valid artist rather than I’m doing something different. Now imagine how challenging it was for people. I mean, we can go right back to Van Gogh, but any of the artists who started doing surreal work or who started doing, any of the abstract work or who, like Mondrian, did the different pieces, they challenged what was acceptable. I know there are a lot of women in that. In my art history was very male oriented. So I’m going to apologize to the listeners right now and just say that I recognize that all the names I’ve pulled are male, and I need to rectify my art history knowledge a bit, a lot. but as artists, I think we should be challenging also our desire for acceptance and our need to be seen as creating actually good art. You know, like, there’s there’s a joke I remember I don’t remember if it was from a TV show or a movie or whatever. But there’s this artist who is creating all these crazy, amazing, colorful pieces. And then one day he went out and painted the neighbor’s dog or whatever, and then the neighbor was like, oh, finally, he’s actually getting good at art. You know, like it’s. Yeah.
00:15:26 Speaker 2: I mean, and another thing, Paula, which I’m interested in what you have to say on this, which is still on still on topic. I have come across artists who almost have two businesses. They will do the art that makes that they’re passionate about, that makes them tick, and then they will do art that they deem will sell. So two very, very different styles. But it’s almost it’s two, businesses. Now to me I, I couldn’t do that personally. But what would you advise an artist who was thinking of setting up a a side hustle as such? of the art that they deem and they think that society wants that.
00:16:24 Speaker 1: See, I did that because I did do the the pet portraits and I did the commissioned portraits and things like that. I set them up as commissions. So I didn’t actually create. If if somebody liked my style of what I was actually making, they could order a commission of whatever they wanted. I could still say no to the commission, but, they could order whatever they wanted. It would be done in my style. And that’s how I did it. Commissions ended up being a significant source of income for me because people wanted what they wanted, but done in a way that I did it. So my styles weren’t different, but the subjects were very different. when it comes to something that’s radically different. Let’s say you do paintings of toast for your bread and butter. I think I’m hungry. and and, I don’t know, abstract sculptures that, you know, are what you actually want to do. It’s challenging, but I wouldn’t separate them out. I really wouldn’t, but I would make one eighty percent of my marketing and one twenty percent so that when somebody comes to your your page or your site or whatever, they know exactly what they’re looking at. So if your bread and butter your paintings of toast sell really, really well, then that would be what they get most of. And.
00:17:35 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it’s like I do commissions and I’ll do, I do portraits of people in my style, And using the similar techniques that I use in my portraits of the women, because it’s about a story being told, it’s about your story being told that, I’m more than happy to do. but say, if someone said, oh, even even in my style, if they said, oh, would you do a picture of a painting of my house? Yeah. I would be like, well, I don’t think so, because that’s not my thing. But, you know, I could point you in the direction of somebody who will paint your house or paint your iguana or whatever.
00:18:17 Speaker 1: Mhm. Yeah. I just, I mean we have to make a living. Let’s, let’s be real about that. So if you have something that sells and it doesn’t float your boat or whatever, figure out how to live with it or figure out how to make people like what you do. So I follow this artist on TikTok, he paints one square foot of his flat and it takes him, like every day he paints a different square foot of his flat. And if you would ask any of his buyers, a year before they bought from him. Oh, you’re going to buy a partial painting of a radiator of some random guy’s flat in London or wherever he’s at and love it. People would be like, no, that’s the stupidest thing I ever heard. Part of a radiator, a bit of shoe. Like, why would I buy a painting like that? And he has just relentlessly, every day post on TikTok, his current painting, whatever he’s working on. And then he fits it into the rest of the pieces. You can see his flat come together in these very disjointed, very, um, interesting studies of his daily life and his whatever teeny tiny little flat, and he does great big gallery shows, but he taught people to value what it was he was passionate about. And he’s passionate about painting the crumbs on his counter or his kettle boiling, or the coat hanging on the back of his door, and how it’s moved since the day previous and it’s six inches down or whatever. Like he’s taught people to love and respect that by being relentless about making people see his work. and he’s got great big shows and I’m I his work is selling for good money. So he’s done a good job. So why why have.
00:19:56 Speaker 3: Because it.
00:19:57 Speaker 2: Exactly. And because what he’s doing is exactly what we were talking about earlier. he is challenging the viewer to look at what could be or, you know, described as the mundane the day to day, but to look at it in a different way and to see the beauty in it.
00:20:19 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And how we interact with our environments and they change through those interactions every single day. So yeah, you, you there are ways to bring your disparate parts of your business together. Because I’m never a fan of a side hustle in an art business, we’re already divided between creating and selling. So if you have to create two different things and sell them to two different groups, you are creating more work for yourself. Figure out how.
00:20:49 Speaker 2: You’re diluting your. You’re diluting your message and your call. Really?
00:20:55 Speaker 1: Exactly. We we have also only so much energy. So if I pull out the spoon analogy again because I’m feeling it this week after a heavy promotion week last week for my own businesses. you only have twelve spoons a day of things you can do, right? It’s a finite amount. So if you are spending six of those spoons making art and three of those spoons existing, then you’ve got three spoons left to market. Now, what are you going to use them for? How are you going to get people which side which art business are you going to be marketing with those three tiny little limited spoons? Right. Pay attention to dividing your energy too much and pay attention to doing what you love. We have one short life. I don’t know how it is. I’m over fifty. I have no idea. It was an accident. I blinked and there we go. And we have one short life. And when you hit a certain stage in life, you sort of look, look around and go, I think I might have, I don’t know, twenty or thirty good years left. And, you know, from experience those aren’t going to last very long. And if you’re busy doing things to please other people, then what’s the point of you, especially as an artist? What’s the point? Right. We’re here to create. We’re here to be, creative. We’re here to put our work out in the world, to communicate, to connect, to challenge, and to do a whole bunch of stuff. And if you’re busy making same old, same old as most artists do, then what’s the point? What’s the action?
00:22:24 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. It is. I mean, and that’s the thing, we are all different. And I’m just, I just want to say, because this is true, this podcast, we haven’t got answers. We are only expressing our views. We are discussing these things to help you, to help everybody think about where they are in this process. so we’re not saying, you need to do it this way. You need to do it that way because we’re not. We are just just putting we are challenging the listener to think and value what they’re doing. So, you know, I just want to clarify that again that that’s that’s what that’s what we’re doing here. And we’re hoping that it is making people think and delve a bit deeper into the art world.
00:23:12 Speaker 1: I agree. Actually, that’s a really good disclaimer to put on this too, because I tend to talk in definites, and the beauty about being human and being alive is our diversity. And I’m not just talking about racial or cultural diversity. I’m also talking about our diversity in our points of view, our diversity in how we approach our lives and how we approach our art and everything else. What is right for me may not be right for you. And and the same thing with fee, I I’ll tell fee to do stuff till I’m blue in the face. But she’ll only do what’s right for her, and that’s perfectly fine. And we’re still friends in spite of that. Because she doesn’t do what I tell her. I’m kidding. Um, but yeah, we we are allowed and supposed to have our diversity of opinion and experience. And in our podcast series, we’re on episode two now. But in our podcast series, we want you to deconstruct what isn’t working and chuck away the rest. I’m not going to be offended if you don’t do what I say. Do what you want. It’s your life. I don’t have to live it. So, Yeah, but just take these ideas and see what? What’s worthy of deconstructing.
00:24:19 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
00:24:22 Speaker 1: And I think that brings us to the end of episode two, which is should you change your art so that it sells more? Should you have bread and butter art? Should you make art that is challenging or interesting or creates discomfort. What does all that mean? If this has resonated with you, feel free to leave comments because we do see the comments below the podcast. Feel free to share this with friends. Have a discussion. nobody is right. Nobody’s wrong. We are just.
00:24:50 Speaker 2: And who knows, we could even spark another episode. And as I said, as far as we’re concerned, art is about telling a story, having a point of view. And there are plenty of artists who do paint animals and landscapes who have exactly that. And we are. We love them. We love all those paintings, too.
00:25:10 Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. And I’ve loved doing those paintings myself for my clients. So there we go. Alright, so this is Art crush with Marks and Paula. Stay tuned for further episodes. Follow us on your favorite podcast provider or on Spotify and keep listening.
