Artist collectives shaped art in the Western World for a long time but they seem to be fading off. Are they worth it? Our thoughts about starting one, why you’d want to be in one, and more.
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00:00:00 Speaker 1: Welcome to Art crush podcast with artist Fi Marks and myself. Artist, Paula Telizyn, where we talk about art, art, businesses, life as an artist and more.
00:00:24 Speaker 1: Welcome, fee.
00:00:26 Speaker 2: Hi. Thank you Paula. Welcome to you too.
00:00:30 Speaker 1: So today we were going to talk about, artist collectives and artist groups and all that because we, we’re sort of looking around online and, and thinking about artists one hundred years ago and how they would get together in France and drink together, do shows together, encourage each other, copy each other and more. And, and it feels like there isn’t The same sort of goings on that there were. I mean, it’s a different time and all that, but that, that artists don’t seem to collect in the same way. so let’s talk about that a little bit.
00:01:07 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it’s probably because when we think of those communities, of course, we are talking about those white men and, uh, they, they were often supported by rich relatives or had enough funds in order for them to actually be an artist. It wasn’t open to as many people. so they would meet people and gather at like minded places and also the, the fact that they traveled, you know, when you think of the people like Vincent Van Gogh and, Matisse, you know, going off and Gauguin, you know, they went to other countries, which was very rare at the time. But I think we were we sort of got onto it because we were like people. We were talking about styles, weren’t we? And we were saying that if, when, when you look at the early work of Vincent van Gogh, it’s all in browns and very and dull. And then his, you know, the work he is famous for is the work that he did in south of France. And it’s like, well, can you imagine? He would have had no idea. Imagine not knowing what the south of France and the light was like. And it would be. It was like being in the Wizard of Oz. And you know, when it goes from black and white to color. So no wonder. So the fact that they, you can understand that they probably contacted their mates in different parts and said, you’ve got to get down here and it’s the most inspiring place to paint. So that has sort of changed because the people who paint in plein air or whatever are not the majority of artists. so different art has taken on different places. And it does feel that sort of artists have gone into themselves, although they do still crave that artist community. And there are artist communities, but they’re usually centered around studios or people perhaps, who are already friends, have set up collective, but there isn’t any famous ones, you know that. like the the Saint Ives community, you know, it was it was like a place to go and be yourself and be with your tribe. And it’s definitely something that, I mean, we’ve sort of found each other from across across the Atlantic through the medium of social media. but you have to sort of find your people. But in a much broader way. And then go, look, let’s make this happen. Let’s do a group show. It doesn’t matter that we’re in different places. You know, let’s let’s do that. So I think that’s where it all came from, didn’t it, when we started talking about it.
00:04:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. We were discussing about the influence of artists on each other and just the fact that there doesn’t seem to be that larger collective there online. Absolutely. But you don’t really know the artists online. You don’t know when you’re posting or sharing your work that people behind the scenes aren’t going, oh, look what they did. It’s kind of crappy. Why are they here? And then they smile at your face. You don’t know any of that because there isn’t that human to human interaction. And and I think we need that now more than ever online. There’s a certain curation of how you are and and who you are. You can sort of choose to present an aspect of yourself that you can’t affect when you’re in person. Like, for example, when fee and I met in person, I’m very tall. You wouldn’t necessarily be able to tell that online.
00:04:58 Speaker 2: And I’m very short.
00:05:00 Speaker 1: Exactly. So. there’s the, things that you can’t change when you’re in person. And there are also the chance to interact in a 3D way. Whereas right now, um, when we’re in the distance, we’re curated just the same way as if one hundred years ago we were sending letters back and forth. She would only get what I wanted her to know and what part of my personality I wanted to know, or what artwork I was proud of, rather than all of the artwork there. There is that that loss of a true connection in person. I was thinking about, um, I don’t remember the group, what they were called now, but there was a group of female surreal artists, a surrealistic artists that would travel from various parts of the world, from Venezuela and Argentina, all the way over to France. And other ones would come from other areas in Europe, and they would do shows and they would go to France, they would go to Spain, and they would do these shows together. And there was quite a few of them. There was at least fourteen women in this collective. And I saw an exhibition of their work in Spain, and it was really incredible. But again, these were people who came together because traveling was difficult. They would come together for months at a time, build up their bodies of work for the shows in person, on site, and then do these events. And so you would get to know the other artists deeply and they would be colleagues. One of the things I stress when I teach artists is we are not competition to each other. We are colleagues. We should be lifting each other up. We should be inspiring each other. We should be be allowing ourselves to grow our practices larger than they are with one person. I think the biggest loss to artists, and I wonder if this is a little bit benefiting capitalism, is the fact that we are encouraged to create by ourselves uniquely, solely and protect our copyrights and hide this, hide that, and be suspicious of each other because it benefits, someone else who’s making money. so I think that as artists, part of our protest shouldn’t be just be in our work saying think differently, behave differently, consider new things. But it should also be through how we work that we should be embracing the idea of collectives, of groups, for example, I love fee’s work. My work is very, very simplified. Her work is very complex. So if I saw the crows that feed us in her paintings, and I take the idea of a crow and add it to my painting, would be angry with me for being inspired by her work, or would she be chasing me down for copyright? Or would it be a case of in a collective being like, I love how you took something I created and interpreted it differently. It’s very obviously your own thing, but it’s also obviously inspired. Like, we need that attitude in art.
00:07:47 Speaker 2: Absolutely, because we know that we couldn’t paint in the same way that no two people paint in the same way. as in any skill, everybody does it in a, in their own unique way. And I am inspired by other artists all the time. I’m very excited because it’s it’s my birthday weekend coming up, and I am going to see some of my favorite, favorite paintings and artists. I’m going to see Evelyn De Morgan’s work in Wightwick Manor near Wolverhampton and I love her work. And again, I think she’s a very undervalued Pre-Raphaelite. She’s sort of going into Pre-Raphaelite arts and crafts. Her work is gorgeous. And then I’m going to Birmingham Art Gallery on Sunday to see. It’s just opened two weeks ago to go and see all the beautiful Pre-Raphaelites there. I’ve been before. It doesn’t matter. I come away and I just want to get my canvas out. I’m not trying to do to be them or do them, but they inspire me. And I might take a theme or, you know, a part of that painting or something. It’s about learning and bouncing ideas. Now, if I could sit in a room and be mates with Evelyn, I’m sure I mean, the sky’s the limit. And that’s, you know, I’m doing it on a very, very, very small scale and I think it’s fun to collaborate in work as well. Try things. Create a canvas together. Have fun. Play around. Doesn’t mean necessarily that you’re going to sell it or use it, but it does spark your ideas and make you think in a slightly different way. And I say the little taste of it I have had, I just want more. And, you know, that would be the dream to go, you know, those Argentinian women have sorted it out because that is amazing. You get to see the world, you get to be with your friends and you get to sell art. And you, you know what? And be inspired. What more could any artist want?
00:10:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s something that we need to really consider because there’s a lot of value in being online. I mean, we demonstrate that you and I, because we’re doing a podcast six thousand kilometres apart. But there’s there’s a lot more value for being in person and being inspired by each other in person and collaborating and whatever. So I would love to know that we are wrong, that there are collectives that exist and not just, oh, go on this art retreat, and then you meet a bunch of people and you go off and do your own thing. I mean, like collectives that are together for years, maybe some members come and go, but the core group is there for years that they meet once a year for a month or two and prepare a show in person at a place. I’d love to know that that exists, because that would be really incredible to know that that some things about art haven’t been lost in the shuffle, to make more money and protect our copyrights and and be unique in all of that. Humans need socialization. We need to be seen as part of communities. We need to find our people. We need to feel safe to express ourselves. And we need to to. I’m going to put it bluntly. We need to riff off of each other. We need to take something that somebody had an idea of and twist it and make it our own.
00:11:35 Speaker 2: we had, a little taste of that when we did that exhibition, when I met Paula for the first time in Scotland and just embryonically we are have started talking about doing another show together with a couple of other artists, and that will make my year that will, you know, whatever. We learn so much from that, you know, didn’t we? it was an amazing experience on many, many levels, but I am so ready to do that again. Instead of continually looking for shows that I can sign up to, writing to galleries that I know won’t want my work because it’s not run of the mill. It’s not what, you know, the white middle class think of as art. it’s the most exciting thing and it’s already making me excited for twenty twenty six. So imagine if you were then going, okay, we’re going to take over this huge farmhouse in the south of France. People can come for any time for up to three months, and we’re just going to create. Yeah. You know, that’s that would be my absolute dream. I’d have to bring the dogs though.
00:12:56 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, that would be absolutely incredible.
00:12:59 Speaker 1: I was just talking actually, with a friend of mine who works in publishing this morning, and she was saying that all the book covers now in certain genres like, say, romance, they all use similar fonts and they all use similar styles of illustration. And because she reads so much, partly for her job and partly for enjoyment, she never can tell which book she’s read or not, because the covers blend in together. There’s this idea of creating, things that have already sold, that, you know, people will buy. So you make more of it, just variations of it. It’s the same idea with galleries when they look at your work. Nobody else has done anything like it. So they go, well, we don’t know if it’ll sell, therefore we’re not going to take the risk. We’d rather get a variation of what has already sold in the past. And then the buyers get accustomed to seeing only art that they’ve seen before. Therefore they understand it. Therefore, it’s easy to say yes to it. Therefore they buy it. So we end up with these smaller and smaller worlds of of content, of visual arts that people will want to look at and will feel like they understand it, right? That’s part of the reason why it can be challenging to walk a different path as an artist.
00:14:10 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we I mean, we maybe we’ll be discussing this in another podcast, but that is something else that Paula and I have been talking about, not only having that artist community try and getting that together, but also shaking up how, art shows us how the public, how people who come and visit, uh, interact with the art and making it much more sensory and available for all people.
00:14:42 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I’m actually looking at a second art show in Toronto with a different group of artists creating an immersive experience, um, which I’m not going to talk further about until we’ve nailed down some details. But twenty twenty six for me is going to be involved in collaborating with artists so that we create something different. Maybe we need to shake things up. Well, we maybe.
00:15:06 Speaker 2: Be brave.
00:15:07 Speaker 1: To shake things up. Be brave. Yes.
00:15:10 Speaker 2: Take risks.
00:15:11 Speaker 1: Yeah. Risks are important too, because we we’ve been taught to be afraid of failure. Because failure clearly means our lives are over. Uh, we’re not perfect. We might as well curl up our toes and die. But failure is just data. It’s just showing.
00:15:25 Speaker 2: I wouldn’t I wouldn’t even use the word failure if I were you, because I don’t see it as that. It’s like because it’s all learning. Here’s a bit of education coming out now. But yeah, it’s like you learn more from what’s deemed as a mistake. You can’t actually fail. It just takes you in a different direction and a different path. And it’s a bit like when you think everything happens for a reason. You can’t always see that until you look back with hindsight. But it’s exactly the same with things that you at the time feel like an absolute travesty. I did this show and didn’t sell anything and nobody came and blah blah blah and going away and beating yourself up. You just go, okay, so how can we do it differently? What was it the wrong place for me? You learned far more than if you go. And the show is an amazing success because and we’ve known artists like that who have had a very successful show and then can’t move on because they didn’t actually think about what made it successful. They thought just them showing up made it successful, so they haven’t had to then go away and work at it, and then can’t understand why they can’t replicate that.
00:16:48 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so true. That is so true. I just associate taking risks with a risk of failure. Um, but you’re right. We shouldn’t call it failure. We should just call it data and learning and opportunities for learning and all of that. But there’s also like inherent risks with deciding to join or create an artist, collective or community, because you have to be very careful in who you curate and in spite of the best of your ability. you know, you may end up with people who are not good fits. You have to figure out how to adjust for that. So I was in a it started as a mastermind, ended up being kind of a collective. And then everything kind of fell apart because we had a couple of personalities in there that weren’t great. And this was years and years and years ago for me. Um, and so I’m, I’m aware of how it can be challenging, but I think what you get from participating, regardless of the outcome, is still really important data and really important learning. and I think I know that when we come together as people who are creative, even if our our methods are very diverse, We all are richer from working together.
00:18:01 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, one hundred percent. You know, it’s that’s what’s exciting. And and I think also I mean, both of us to a certain extent are quite peoplely people. We do like to talk. I’m not my you are better at writing about things. I, I, I learn most by conversation and talking things through. That’s my preferred learning style. And here I am as an artist. And I’m not using that as much as I can. I mean, I’m lucky because I’ve worked with you for now, five years, um, over five years. Six years. And it’s, you know, I’ve always. So I’ve had you in my life that I can always talk things through. I don’t just I don’t know what I would have done if I couldn’t talk to people or fellow artists or whatever, because it is so, so important to help you in any business, I would have thought.
00:19:00 Speaker 1: I think so, I think that that we crave, that connection and we crave that, that getting inspired based on somebody else’s comment or whatever. You know, we we, you and I talk before we start recording these podcasts. And oftentimes the conversation before we even hit record is what inspires what we talk about in the podcast. So, so yeah, it’s it’s I think it’s important that we remember that we are not islands. We are better off together. More better, more better. Can I do English? We are far more creative. We reach farther. We do more when we join together than we do on our own. So I think that’s that’s sort of the the heart and soul of what we’re talking about today. The artists would. I want to say would be more powerful, but power is not the word for it. Artists would create better art, more interesting art, if they chose to create communities in person and collect.
00:20:12 Speaker 2: And you are right about the power, because on your own you are sometimes feel like a voice in the wilderness. But if you are part of like minded people in a group that work together, you can be much stronger. You can make those decisions going, no, that’s not the right place for me to show my art. I know they want me to, you know, they’ve said yes, but and I know I’ve fallen for this, and I know you have, Paula. You know, when somebody says, oh, yes, we’ll take your art in our gallery or in our show and you don’t say, well, actually, I don’t think it’s a good fit because they’ve said, yes, we go. Oh thank you, thank you. And then we’re not surprised that it doesn’t sell or it doesn’t have the publicity, because we knew that all along and we should have been strong in the first place and said, thank you. That’s really nice. But I don’t think it’s a good fit.
00:21:12 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Having the, convictions of your community will help you be less at the whims of people you think are in power. When the reality is the artist does hold the power. We can choose to sell or not to sell. We can choose to show or not to show somebody. Yes, doesn’t mean we have to jump.
00:21:31 Speaker 2: So absolutely. And and because if you’re in that group, you’ve got to have those discussions. You can’t just go, oh yeah, we’re all just turn up and paint and just see what happens. If you are going to work as a collective or a group, you have to have made sure that you have some sort of commonalities or belief systems that bring you together, and you’ve got that clear in your head, which sometimes you don’t feel like you need to have when you’re working in isolation.
00:22:07 Speaker 1: Yeah. one of the things that really helps when you are, especially when you’re starting out selling art, but when you’re selling art in general, or creating art is knowing thoroughly what you stand for and knowing thoroughly what you stand against. And and, you know, being open, obviously, to changing if you learn differently and learn better. And so you change your mind a little bit. But having that understanding of who you are as a person, what your belief systems are and what your your belief systems as an artist are and your potential as an artist will make all the difference. And being in a collective, I think, helps eliminate a lot of imposter syndrome, because you’re not sitting in your own head and imposter syndrome originates inside your head when your brain lies to you in an attempt to keep you living small. Therefore, you’re going to be safe because nobody will notice you, so nobody will chop your head off. You’re not taking any risks, blah blah blah blah blah. When you’re in an artist collective, the group momentum will keep you going and the group conversation will keep you out of your head. So that’s where imposter syndrome goes to die. So yeah.
00:23:12 Speaker 2: And just on a practical note, if you are, you know, part of a collective, you’re also spreading the cost of shows and events that you’re doing because you’ve got people to spread the cost. So the idea of doing a show on your own, hiring up a place can be hugely expensive. but if it’s shared between people, it’s actually not that expensive. So I know that’s a real practicality thing, but it just occurred to me that you have. So you’ve got more potential to take those risks and try things out, which you can’t do by yourself.
00:23:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we’re going to wrap this up by focusing on that word potential that you’ve just said. Potential. When you join or create a collective of like minded artists where you work and create your art, have conversations and do shows together, you increase your potential. Yes. There’s risk. Everything has risk. staying at home and lying in bed has risks because you’ll just lie in bed and get fat and never do anything. while that’s very appealing to me because I’d like to go back to bed. Uh, there’s there’s more potential in what we’re doing, right in, in creating a collective in person and creating group shows in, uh, riffing ideas off of each other. There’s a lot more potential. So if you take nothing away from this podcast episode, other than there’s more potential when we join together, that will still be a good thing.
00:24:43 Speaker 2: And let us know if anyone, any of our listeners are in a collective or a group of artists that have worked together for years, or, you know, you’re just setting one up. You know, pop it in the comments and let us know about your collective, and we can give you a big shout out. And, uh, yeah, we’d love to hear from you.
00:25:02 Speaker 1: Absolutely. We’ll do a future episode based on the comments. you can also email us at our respective emails on our websites and, uh, and let us know about your collective. And we will we will be happy to, shout out. I think that wraps up this episode of the of the of Artcrush with artist fee marks and me, Paula, and also an artist. You can listen to more episodes on Spotify or your favorite podcast app, or hop on over to our websites. Fee marks and Paula Spelling is in the title of our podcast, so you can catch it there and we will see you in the next episode.
